Questionable modified pommel?

CarlosC · Post by **CarlosC** » Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:20 pm

Saw this on eBay- https://www.ebay.com/itm/284656720652 -and it's the first I've ever seen available on any of the auction sites I monitor, and with a hefty price. I was leaning toward a legitimate sample...

...until I saw this pic and it looked like saw marks at an angle. The two I own, that came from Germany, are perfectly smooth in that area. This one also has the tips left at the front, but they appear to be at a slight angle. What do the experts think? Some of you also own these, so are yours smooth or do they have those types of marks?

Post by **Brian** » Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:39 pm

It's done after. I would pass

Post by **Mr. B.** » Thu Feb 17, 2022 8:02 pm

There has been lots of discussion and controversy about this modification to the pommels. It has been found on both Hungarian and E.G. AKM 6X3 bayonets in slightly different styles. Some have saw, file, grinding marks others have been sanded very smooth and oiled or refinished. I think most of us agree that they are not molded that way from the factories / arsenals. They are a somewhat uniform modification apparently to allow the 6X3 to mount on a different weapon. Perhaps an experimental or prototype rifle or attachment? No one has produced an answer or documentation. Use caution as these modifications, by nature, are easy to duplicate with hand tools and limited skill. Maybe all that we see are replicas of a fake!? Mike

CarlosC · Post by **CarlosC** » Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:55 am

Could be. You never know.

As for mounting on a different weapon, mine will mount on an either of my AK-74s, which the regular 6X3 won't because it won't clear. I could only guess that was the intent of the mod...to allow the huge inventory of 6X3s to go on either the existing AKMs or the new AK74s. While I know that would have benefited the Germans, I wasn't so sure about the Hungarians. That started me thinking...did the Hungarians make an AK-74? - yes, but their version (NGM-81) used a standard front sight base and a narrow flash hider, not the standard AK-74 muzzle brake, so there wouldn't have been a need for them to mod their 6X3s. So many questions.

Post by **Mr. B.** » Sat Feb 19, 2022 3:46 am

Hi Carlos, you got me thinking with your comments above. I decided to do some testing of my own. I do have one of these modified East German, DDR, AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets. Mine has the small points like the one pictured above. Pictures and story are posted on this Forum under "Germany" and a different heading. Mine was cheap and in a box of other used DDR bayonets.
I do not have a Russian or DDR AK74 rifle, but I do have a complete Bulgarian AK74 front barrel end I use to display how a 6X5 bayonet mounts. I grabbed my modified DDR 6X3 bayonet, a standard DDR 6X3, a standard DDR 6X4 and a standard Bulgy 6X5. I tried them on. They all mounted normally except for the standard DDR 6X3. The top of the standard 6X3 pommel interfered with the pin lugs on the bottom of the front sight base. The modified one did mount with no problem! Pictured below, top to bottom: 6X5, 6X4, Modified 6X3, Std 6X3 FAIL, (would not mount).
This answers the questions about these modified 6X3 pommels for me. I also question the need for the Hungarian version, but they did produce and sell a lot of commercial 6X3 bayonets to different countries that may have converted to AK74s. A simple and cheap modification to be able to use up surplus 6X3 bayonets. In the past other collectors have said that the ones they had did not mount on standard AK74 rifles. I believe a legitimate one would fit and that is the purpose of this modification. Nothing else makes sense. Still easy to make fakes / replicas, but they should at least mount on a standard AK74. Mike

Post by **Mr. B.** » Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:08 am

Carlos, I referred back to the two East German, DDR AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets with modified pommels that you originally posted. From the pictures, I believe they appear to be able to mount on an AK74 with no problem. The flat top ones would be easier / simpler to make. I do not know why some, like mine, have the small points. I guess as long as they fit on an AK74, they could be legitimate. I would definitely want to make sure they would before spending much for one. Mike

CarlosC · Post by **CarlosC** » Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:27 pm

To me, if I were looking at spending hundreds of dollars on such a bayonet, I'd invest a few dollars on a chopped, but complete, AK74 FSB and do a quick test, if possible. Therefore, I would agree with using a fit test as an easy eliminator of a copy or a legitimate mod.

And you're quite right, my two DDR AKM 6X3 Type 1 bayonets fit on both my Romanian and Russian Saiga Legion AK74. I also have a Russian AK-100 series rifle in 7.62x39 with the modern AK-74 FSB, and both my DDR samples fit that as well. By the way, if you have the cleaning rod in place, the inability of the bayonet to rotate upwards and be inline with the barrel to slide back is more dramatic than without the cleaning rod. The cleaning rod tip will prevent the knife from even getting close to the cleaning rod stop.

CarlosC · Post by **CarlosC** » Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:40 pm

One more thing Mike, I tried to imagine a project to easily make 6X3 bayonets compatible with the existing AKM rifles and the new AK-74 rifles. If leaving as much of the bulbous area in place as possible was a consideration, I would have probably chosen to simply mill the top of the pommels perpendicular to the length of the knife, producing the versions that have the small tips. I believe part of the reason for the rise on the pommel would be a stop to prevent the hand from sliding off when pulling the bayonet back and this would solve both problems.
Perhaps later they figured the stop was not really necessary, so they chose to go with and even easier way to mod them and simply mill the top clean off. Quick and easy.

Post by **Mr. B.** » Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:40 pm

The small points remaining on the top of the pommel would also provide a more secure grip when using the bayonet as a knife or wire cutter. Especially when contacting electrified wire. To use the wire cutter, it is natural to exert the maximum leverage but still avoid the uninsulated metal in the pommel. The small points would be a reminder similar to the small molded bump on the side of a Type II scabbard. Mike

mill_speer · Post by **mill_speer** » Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:08 am

I have my concerns about this DDR M.59. Modification.
This type of modification is known for the Hungarian M.63 bayonet and intended for the Hungarian AMP-69, although I haven't found any real evidence of it yet.
As far as I know, Hungary has not imported any bayonets from GDR productions, I only know of Russian 6X4 bayonets in the Hungarian army.
Mike has already done a lot of preliminary work and documented in pictures which variants fit the AK 74 without any problems.
The DDR M.59 modified according to the Hungarian pattern does not fit an AKM 74 without problems, the groove is much too narrow, the front eyelet of the front sight carrier and the head of the cleaning rod block the placement of the bayonet. All other modified variants of the DDR M.59 also have the same problem.
To attach a 6X3 bayonet to an AKM 74 without problems, the large and narrow groove below the handle must be widened. The groove on the head to 15mm and the longitudinal groove below the head to 11mm then it fits.
I have a russ.6X3 bayonet to show that was adapted for an AKM 74. Unfortunately I forgot where I got it from, I noticed the adaptation very late.
Pictures 3.) 4.) 5.)
Pictures: 6.) 7.) Modified DDR M.59 to DDR AKM-74