Bayonet value

[capnkirk462]

Long time lurker, firs time poster. Thinking about down sizing my collection. I know the value of almost all of them, but this one. 6x4 reduced pommel, NOS, with plum scabbard, and matching elctro-pencil serial numbers. Thank you all very much.

[Mr. B.]

Hi Kirk.
Sorry for the delayed response. I had to do some research before replying. These two items, 6X4 bayonet and 6X5 scabbard were never officially paired even later as rework. There was no transitional period or overlap production between these two items. This makes the hand engraved forced matching numbers very suspect. They could have been added by anyone at anytime. It would be helpful to see better pictures of these numbers.
Overall it would be impossible to place a value on this bayonet as a collectible example of something that doesn’t officially exist. Both the bayonet and scabbard appear to be nice, but would be valued separetly. Mike

[Mr. B.]

Kirk

Here are samples of the Izhevsk Arsenal numbering on a late (1985) 6X4 type 3 (L.W.pommel). Next is the numbering of an early (1987) plum 6X5 type 2 (narrow crossguard).
The first plum 6X5 type 1 was made i1986 in between between the bayonet and scabbard you have. It had no wire cutter hole in the blade and no wire cutter on the scabbard. Mike

[Mr. B.]

Hi Kirk, Just curious. What is your opinion of your bayonet and scabbard? Any idea about how they were paired and matching numbers added? This is the 1st time I have seen this combination, very interesting. Nothing in my references or repair manuals.
Regards, Mike

[capnkirk462]

So the serial numbers are the crappy electro pencil, not the nice crisp ones. Numbers are both 6683. My thoughts are, I was in the Air Force long time ago, that back in the mid to late 90's or later some new privates got put on bayonet inventory/extended storage duty. One thing lead to another and they changed out the scabbards for the heck of it. We would write on stuff with marker on spots of equipment that would not be generally seen if attached to an airplane. Probably just bored 18-20 year olds. The military loves serial numbers on everything so they just added a number that was giving to them if they were not marked. The thing is some where there is a 6x5 plum with the wrong scabbard also.

[Mr. B.]

Hi Kirk, You summed it up nicely, “Some where there is a 6x5 bayonet in the wrong scabbard also.” What you have is a miss-matched bayonet and scabbard. Not very valuable as a collectible item. The value is in what someone would be willing to pay for either or both pieces.
A couple of notes. The 6X4 bayonet will fit and function in a 6X5 scabbard. A 6x5 bayonet will not fit in a 6x4 scabbard. The bayonet blade and scabbard body are longer. Again the matching numbers are wrong. The Russians in this time period used only the last three numbers of the rifles serials when issued. Matching numbers are meaningless if the item is miss-matched to start with.
Regards, Mike

[capnkirk462]

Ok, thanks a lot for your time and knowledge.

[ilian]

i have one "transitional" with original number on it, like yours certainly assembly during a short period of time

No mold mark on the scabbard and big izhevsk triangle logo.

[Mr. B.]

Hi Marc,

Good to hear from you! Always good to have others participate in discussions. Different information and opinions. As usual, always something new to learn.
At least the numbers on your pictures above seem to be the correct style and locations I would expect from the Russians during this time period. However, I still have issues with a “transitional” due to the time lines involved. The last 6X4 T3 was made in 1985. The first 6X5 T1 production was in 1986, (no hole or cutter plate). The first redesigned 6X5 T2 was not made until 1987, (narrow CG).
In my opinion any left over 6X4 T3 bayonets would be stored or distributed for replacement with correct 6X4 T3 scabbards that are even still in use to this day. Cheers, Mike

[Mr. B.]

Hey Marc,

A couple more observations and questions about pictures on this post if I may?
The original 6X5 T2 scabbard at the top has a small triangle and hanger slot plus mold numbers. Yours has a large triangle, small hanger slot and no mold numbers. Mine below is like the 1st one. Small triangle, small slot, with mold numbers. I am I correct that yours is Plum colored? What do the different triangles and lack of mold numbers mean to you? Early vs later production?
I also noticed a difference in the 6X4 T3 bayonet grips. The top one and yours have the mold numbers on the left side and the triangles on the right front. The one I pictured above and below has the triangle and mold numbers on the right side. Again, what does these differences mean to you? Early vs late production?
All these variations are illustrated / pictured in my Russian references. But I would have to have the text translated to learn what, if anything, they mean. All very tedious and may still not answer our questions.
Your thoughts / opinions?
Thanks, Mike

[ilian]

Hi Mike,

i'm preparing some pics to illustrate my toughts

in 1975/76 russian was alrealy developping PA-6 on AK74 furnitures and bayonet.
So we found 6x4 type 4 with plum sacabbard 10mm longer than usual 6x4 scabbard but only for 6x4 bowie style blade made in 1981.

Then in 1986 there was the first type of 6x5 bayonet, and one year later the 6x5 type 2 bayonet.

On my "transitional" with the plum 6x5 scabbard with no mold number and big logo seems to be an early one with the reused mold from 1981 6x4 type 4 but with the inside space midified for a 6x5 blade. On the russian reference book the Author wrote: "the 6x4 type 4 plum scabbard is recognizable by the lack of mold number and the big logo".

So it seems logical to say that the early 6x5 type 2 scabbards are the same, with no mold and big logo

Follow scabbards with normal logo and mold number 1-1 and continue with a smaller logo and 2-1 or 2-2 mold number.

I hope it's enough clear because english/american is not my mother tongue

[Mr. B.]

The picture below is a cross section of three Russian 6X4 and 6x5 scabbards.
The 1st one on the left is a 6X4 scabbard molded from AG-4V (orange) material. It will fit all 6X3 and 6X4 blades. It was made by both Izhevsk and Tula arsenals from 1965 to 1985
The 2nd one in the middle is a 6X4 scabbard molded from PA-6 (brown) material. It will also fit all 6X3 and 6X4 blades. The scabbard body is 10mm longer than the 1st scabbard. It was made by Izhevsk and possibly TsNII TochMash for testing and trials with the new 6X4 Type 4 bayonets. This was done during 1981. Only small numbers of this 6X4 bayonet and scabbard were produced.
The 3rd one on the right is a 6X5 scabbard molded from PA-6 (plum & black) material. It was made by Izhevsk and will fit all 6x3, 6X4 and 6x5 blades. Production of this scabbard started in 1987.
The 6X5 bayonet blades were introduced in 1986 and were made by Izhevsk. The 6X5 blades are about 15mm longer than the 6X4 blades. They will not fit in a 6X4 scabbard.
The best way to determine if a scabbard is for a 6X4 or 6X5 is to try inserting a 6X5 bayonet. If it fits, it is a 6X5 scabbard. If not, it is a 6X4 scabbard.

[Mr. B.]

Hi Mark, Your English is excellent. I understand what you are saying. However, some of it doesn’t seem to make sense. When TochMash was experimenting with molding of the PA-6 directly on the blade tang wouldn’t they also be working with molding the PA-6 scabbard? I found pictures of the 6X4 Type 4 bayonet and scabbard. The bayonet is unmarked, but the scabbard does have the large Izhevsk mark.
I could not see if there were mold number's. How did you know about the scabbards with the large marking and no mold numbers?
Why would these scabbards for the 6X4 Type 4 bayonets made in 1981 be found paired with 6X4 Type 3 bayonets made from 1983 to 1986? The production of the actual 6X5 Type 2 bayonets and scabbards didn’t start until 1987. The early 6X4 Type 2 scabbards like mine above had the small triangle and were more plum colored where as the 6X4 scabbards were more brown. Regards, Mike

[Mr. B.]

Another logic question. If both Tula and izhevsk were in the midst of producing AG-4V bayonets and scabbards in 1981 why would izhevsk make the small quantity of the 6X4 Type 4 scabbards with different dimensions and PA-6. It would seem logical that TochMash wouid also making the 6X4 scabbards. Perhaps using parts and molds provided by Izhevsk? Mike

[ilian]

Sure they did, like i said, in 1975/76, so they worked on a complete bayonet (bayonet plus scabbard in PA6).

We are agree that the 6x4 type 4 scabbard is 10mm longer but can take only 6x3/6x4 bowie style blade but not 6x5 blade.
I wrote it too

In the book were you took the drawing in the description of the picture you shown here, the autor wrote that the scabbard have a big Izhevsk logo and a lack of mold number. So by extrapolation, we can imagine they reused the mold of the 6x4 type 4 scabbard to do the early production of 6x5 scabbard with a different interior insert to adapt the inside of a 6x5 blade.

the only pics that i have with a 6x4 type 4 show a renumbered bayonet and scabbard and the scabbard seems to be a 6x5 because of the normal size logo and a mold number one but i can't verify it by testing it with a 6x5 bayonet sadly...

[Mr. B.]

Hi Mark, I have been doing lot’s of reading / research lately on the subject. There was no actual “transitional” between the 6X4 T3 bayonet and the 6X4 T4 scabbard. There was no running change or overlapping production. Completely different time periods.
HOWEVER ….. The quote below does explain how and why this combination is found.
“A curious point is that on the 1985 AKS74 assault rifle No. 4001987, a 6X4 option 3 bayonet was installed, but the assault
rifle itself already had a forend, a gas tube lining and a pistol grip made of dark brown ("plum") polyamide, which
indicates phased introduction to the production of polyamide parts. This is also evidenced by the fact that there are 6X4
bayonet knives of the third type in new polyamide sheaths, with paired numbers, which also indicates the joint use of
new parts with products from the old stock. The release of this bayonet-knife continued until 1986 and was discontinued
with the transition to the new model 6X5 bayonet-knives.” Mike

[Mr. B.]

For all guests / members that are following or interest in this subject. I recommend reading, “Interesting Russian Article on Rare Variations” It has links to Russian and English versions. It’s the 1st topic on the 1st page under “Russia”
There are also other posts with articles on the evolution of the Russian AK bayonet. Mike

[Dragur2791]

Go to 11:00 of this video. he actually mentions this variation that Marc owns.

https://youtu.be/VmsltUfl7Ww