Differents arrows in triangle. Need explanations...

[Marco]

Hi everybody,
As we know, the Russian Izhevsk logo is an arrow (full tail) in a triangle.
The Romanian Cugir logo is an arrow (empty tail) in a triangle.
But what kind of logo is an arrow (half full/half empty tail) in a triangle?

Thanks for answers.
Marco

[Mr. B.]

Very interesting observation and question. My first thought was simply a detail fault during molding or perhaps a damaged or defective mold. I will have to do some inspections and research with before coming up with a more positive answer.
Anyone else notice this and have any information? Mike

[CarlosC]

It's Russanian. Seriously though, I've never seen that and can't wait for those in the know to provide some good discussion.

[Mr. B.]

Maybe Ukranian? Halfway between Russian and Romanian? Just kidding. I looked in several of my reverence books. I did not find any details about the molded Izhevsk arsenal marks, just the basic descriptions. I then checked the 31 Izzy 6X4 Type II bayonets and scabbards at my disposal. I did notice lots of different variations in the placement of molded Izzy markings. Large and small triangles, some with sharp points others slightly rounded. Also, some were equilateral and others isosceles triangles. I checked from all different time periods from early post Type I production to the last LW pommel. Different variations at different times could possibly be documented. Maybe not worth the effort as different molds could be used at different times. Also consider the numbers of molds used and volumes produced. I have noticed mold number on the scabbards from single to three digits, lots of molds, lots of production.

All the ones I looked at, except one, had the solid fletchings. I did find one of the half and half ones on a scabbard. This particular scabbard had mold number 102, (pictured below). Unfortunately it provided no additional information. It is one of the few reworked, force matching number bayonets I display. The original numbers were ground off and the new numbers hand written in the ground areas in ink. No way to know if the bayonet and scabbard even matched originally.

Could they be a particular mold, a particular production run or perhaps even supplied by a sub-contractor? Any other ideas or information? Mike

[Mr. B.]

This is the scabbard from my collection with the half and half arrow. Also notice the rounded corners of the triangle. Compare it to the first picture of this subject. Mike

[Marco]

The beginning of this question is I showed my AK bayonets Russian book to my brother (Jc22) and he said me "look picture page 104 the tail of the arrow is strange".
he is right, but impossible to translate...

[Marco]

The book is this one.

[mill_speer]

Interesting question
We only find this Ischmasch logo on the 6X3 transition bayonet, on the 6X4 bayonet early production (logo on the base) and medium production (without logo on the base)
pictures:1. 6X3 second variant
Only the first handle variant of the 6X3 bayonet was used for the transition bayonet! The second 6X3 variant was not manufactured as a transition bayonet.
There are no 6X3 transition bayonets without this logo and they should always have one or two ink stamps on the back in front of the cutting plate. It can happen that they are very lightly stamped or plastered.

The first and middle production of the 6X4 bayonet was from 1965-1971 and also has this Ischmasch logo, the second production 1972-1982 only has the logo with the full arrow in the most different shapes and sizes.
I'm only aware of reconditioned 6X4 bayonets of the first and middle production with scabbards from the production period of 1972-1982. I've never seen such an Ischmasch logo that Mike shows.

[mill_speer]

Pictures :1. Überholte 6X4 Bajonette der ersten und mittleren Produktion mit Scheiden aus dem Herstellungszeitraum von 1972-1982
the second production 1972-1982

[Mr. B.]

Thanks Gerhard. Now we know that they are official and the approximate time periods when they were made. However, we still do not know why or what they represent, if anything. Looking at the pictures above it appears from the many mold numbers that there were lots of molds made with the half and half arrows. In my humble opinion, just another minor variation in Izzy markings.
Marco, your brother is very observant and presented a very interesting question. Always something new to learn. Mike

[Marco]

Hi! an other example. I found this picture in "want to buy/trade" sent by DRAGUR2791 last month. I hope he is ok that I put the picture here. Thanks DRAGUR!!

[Mr. B.]

I found this drawing in a Russian military reference book. I believe it is the original specifications for the Izhevsk Arsenal identification marking. The text was in Cyrillic and I was unable to translate. It is possible that over the years it was simplified when making small detailed dies and molds for the sake of efficiency and reduced cost. Mike

[Mr. B.]

A couple of things to note on the above drawing. The triangle is an isosceles. Also this reference showed the progression of Russian arsenal mark. The original mark for izhevsk was a stylized bow and arrow. Following the archery theme an arrow always had one different colored fletching so that the arrow was positioned on the bow correctly and consistently. I believe this is what the blank vs full means on this drawing. Mike

[Jc22]

Hi everybody !thanks to my brother Marco for this post because of my curiosity..! Mr B thank you also and my look is that of a new in this area after 30 years of collecting in German ww2 so always attention to detail .. best regards

[furtium]

I went through my Russians and came across two with this arsenal mark. Both have 4-digit serial numbers.

[Marco]

Hello Furtium, thanks for very good pictures and models.

Just I have a question for Mike about Furtium pictures :

Is an Izzie 6X4 with a 4 digit serial number is a one used by Bulgarian army?

Thanks.

[Mr. B.]

Hi Marco,
To answer your question, probably not. The Russian AKM Type II bayonets and scabbards have used different numbers of digits, different styles and placement over the production years. This also varies by arsenal, Tula vs Izhevsk. These markings and minor variations are not of much concern to most collectors. However, to partially answer your question, the four digit numbers usually represent an earlier production/issue period. The three digit numbers indicate later production/issue.

Also one must remember that the date of issue, (number installation), may not be the same as the date of production. One can also find un-numbered bayonets and scabbards. A certain percent of production is left un-numbered for replacement and/or later issue. As a further note, bayonets and scabbards may not be manufactured at the same time and paired later before being issued/numbered. The "Transitional" bayonets and scabbards are an example of this.

To further answer your question, I am not aware of any regular or special block of Russian bayonets and scabbards issued and used by Bulgaria. The Bulgarians produced their own AKM 6X4 Type II bayonets and scabbards. Same basic color and design as Russia, but lots of identifying differences. What makes you think that Bulgaria issued or used Russian 6X4 bayonets? As I say, Always something new to learn.
Mike

[Jc22]

Hello ! New arrived .. russian transitional..kiss bro marco .

[Mr. B.]

Wow, very impressive addition. Congratulations! These true matching numbered “Transitional” bayonets are difficult to find. One of the empty spots on my display wall. I’ve handled / inspected a few over the years, but never owned one. When available, they were and still are, out of my price range.
Mike

[Brian]

Awesome find. Also have one, need to dig it out and take pics.