Egyptian marked Tula 6x4

[Dragur2791]

For the record im adding pictures of one of my recent acqusitions. An Egyptian marked Tula 6x4. Arabic numbers are matching and the regular Tula inspection ink is still some what present.
Notice how the Tula star has been removed on the scabbard/Stamped over on the cross guard.
This bayonet was collected by an Israeli soldier during the Yom Kippur war in 1973.

[Dragur2791]

Additional pictures

[Dragur2791]

Additional pictures

[Dragur2791]

With kind permission from David David im adding two pictures of more examples for viewing.

Overall, most of these bayonets were in general battle field pickups.

[Dragur2791]

To my understanding there were attempts to fake the existence of an Egyptian produced 6x4. There were pics going around online of an example with some Egyptian army markings and such.
As I understood that somebody who made it were busted?!
I am sharing pics of the once “faked Egyptian 6x4”.

[Mr. B.]

Hi Alexander,
Very interesting AKM 6X4 Type II bayonet and scabbard. It does appear to be an early Russian made version from the Tula arsenal. Correct manufacturing markings and even the off-white inspection stamps. A question would be why would someone go through the time and expense of grinding off a star and striking over a small one on the crossguard? What and where are the original issue numbers? Not much evidence of their removal. Why would Egypt hide Russian markings? They supplied the machines, technology and even parts to make these bayonets. The Russians also provided / sold them to several countries in the area.
The main question for me would be the added matching “Egyptian” numbers. I remember lots of discussion about the differences between Western Arabic, Eastern Arabic, Farsi and Persian numbers. The fake Egyptian made 6X4 Type II pictured above was discredited by fake markings and numbers. Regardless, the Egyptians and other countries involved in this conflict used what ever was available at the time. This one is Russian made, supplied and numbered in a different country and possibly used by Egypt. Collected by an Israeli soldier during Yom Kippur war in 1973, but difficult to prove.
Regards, Mike

[Mr. B.]

As a follow up question, why did you post David David’s pictures? Just to show evidence of similar “battle field pickups”? Difficult to try to identify without seeing other markings. All I see are similar numbers on the scabbards. Who made them? Who owned and use them? No evidence of manufacture. Look closely at the sawteeth on all 4 examples. Different machining and the one left angles the wrong way! At least yours appears to be Russian made.
Russian made 6X4 Type II bayonets possibly? Used by Egypt possibly? Used by Iraq or Iran during their conflict possible? Lots of possibilities? Who knows and how to prove?
Regards, Mike

[Mr. B.]

Hey Alexander,
Another question for you. Just curious why you would post about a supposedly Egyptian MADE and numbered 6X4 Type II bayonet and scabbard here. Your post was about a a Russian made bayonet and scabbard with Egyptian numbers.
Yes, for years starting in the 1980s there are stories and pictures of an Egyptian made Type II bayonet and scabbard. They have been featured and pictured in several references books. American, Polish, Russian and probably others into the 2000s. Also supposedly owned by several private collectors. After a while we all noticed that they all had the same numbers! In addition to that the numbers were in Persian, numbers not used in Egypt. They were also marked with the trademark for Maadi industries. A mark not used on other Egyptian bayonets and scabbards. Some thought that they were made in Russia a sales samples for the Egyptian market. Either to make them or buy them. Another story is that they were made in Russia as presentation gifts for visiting Egyptian dignitaries. I doubt we will ever no for sure.
Cheers, Mike

[Dragur2791]

Hello Mike,
Good to hear your thoughts. Yes, When observing these bayonets alot of questions arise. Why are the stars removed, why were they never etched with the usual soviet issued numbers, who used them and who collected them from the battlefield?

In general how i see it: you modify the bayonet to serve a purpose. Either to fit a certain rifle/to make it fit better, or to not make it fit/work at all, or to demonstrate something in the political aspect?
Im by no way an expert on middle eastern politics in the 70ties, but for some reason one must assume that it was important for someone (the Egyptians) to desoviettise these bayonets. To make them appear less connected to the soviet union?
So to answer your question as to why someone would use the effort to remove the Tula stars - well, because it must have been important in regards to something political. Was it done prior to shipping them to Egypt? Yes, perhaps. Could just be a special request from the buyer that the factory would comply to.
Or even the Egyptians did it themselves.

Another thing - could it be of iranian or iraqi origin? Perhaps, but everything indicate that these were picked up by israeli soldiers as trophies during the conflict in 1973 and brought back to Israel where they have sat for many years.
Only recently a small flow of these have been seen in Israel. Sometimes often sold as “Russian bayonet” for 50$. Only a handful of people knew what they were and now we are being presented to a bayonet in very low quantities, that appears to carry some quite interesting aspects of history.

As to your pointing of the reversed saw back: production error? Perhaps David can present more pics of that particular one.
From what i know every each example is Tula made with all the usual Tula characteristics.

Why i would post about the “faked egyptian bayonet” here?
Because i for many years thought that there actually existed one and the two pictures i posted are the only ones i have ever seen. They came from a thread (cant remember from what site) “mr krinks most rare ak bayos list” or something. I saw the pics and i was like “i need that”. That was back in 2018. I began collecting in 2016 so all this info about the egyptian 6x4 was very new to me. Even more interesting was it when I in 2021 first time learned about the egyptian Tula marked bayonet. For me it changed the aspect completely.

I have never heard/seen of any of the egyptian marked Tula 6x4’s being numbered with the same numbers. All the pics i have seen was with different numbers, some mismatched and some often badly worn or damaged/burned.
In the coming weeks i will post more pics of examples of these bayonets for everyone to observe.

[Mr. B.]

We seem to have wandered of track. Your original post was about your Egyptian marked Tula 6X4. Here is what we know for sure. It is Russian made, apparently at the Tula Arsenal. Someone, at some time, in some place has added what appears to be Eastern Arabic numbers. There is virtually no way to confirm who, where or when. These Russian bayonets and scabbards have been distributed world wide. Arabic numbers do not make it Egyptian!
Here is information concerning the fake Egyptian AKM 6X4 Type II with Type II scabbard : https://www.theakforum.net/threads/egyp ... ts.185797/. Mike

[Mr. B.]

A few pictures of the Fake Egyptian bayonet and scabbard. I first saw it in Martin Ivie’s book in 2002. Since then it has appeared in several other reference books from different countries. It has also been listed on eBay and posted on several collectors sites on line. Actually there have been several other fakes that were easy to confirm. This particular one has been around for years and always with the same markings and numbers. Even then the numbers are Persian not used in Egypt. Mike

IMG_4143.jpeg (27.6 KiB) Viewed 653 times

[Mr. B.]

Forgot one picture.

[Dragur2791]

Mike,
We are still on track so don’t worry.
Thanks for your sharing the pictures from the book.
Im going to share pictures of more Tula bayonets that has the same charactaristics of the one i presented initially. Of course with permission from the owner of these.
Arabic numbers and removed Tula stars. Some are matching. Some not.
One of them is also shown in the thread on the Files that you linked to.

No 1:

[Dragur2791]

2nd

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3rd

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4th

[Dragur2791]

And the 5th

[Dragur2791]

All these examples came from Israel and surfaced lately apart from the first that was acquired quite some years ago.
No izhvesk bayonets has been observed. Only Tula.
All of them are said to be connected to the Yom Kippur conflict as trophy pick ups. They share the same details as mine and the ones in possession of David.

[Mr. B.]

What are you trying to say? They are Russian made bayonets with Arabic numbers. What makes them Egyptian? Egypt made their own AKM 6X4 Type II bayonets with Type I scabbards in large quantities and even sold them to other countries. Why would they buy or use more expensive ones from Russia or other countries and spend time re-numbering them. Most of the Egyptian made were un-numbered. Stories about captured or war trophies are just that. Whether from the Gulf Wars, the Balkan Conflicts, Afghanistan or even Vietnam. All sorts of mixed bayonets and stories. Make up your own if you wish. Believe what you want. M.

[Mr. B.]

Let’s start over with your bayonet and scabbard. All the other pictures are out of context and of no meaning to me. Your bayonet is a Russian AKM 6X4 Type II early version with the machined pommel and crossguard, (no visible rivets). These were made from 1965- 71. From what I can see it was made at the Tula Arsenal. The original arsenal marks have been stamped over or removed so no confirmation. However, the round rivets on the scabbard cutter plate stop and the off-white paint stamped inspection marks on both the bayonet and scabbard seemed to be from Tula. We can not see if there are original numbers or Russian Military acceptance marks, (OTK or CB or a flattened diamond shape). The style and placement of original numbers and Acceptance marks could tell us if they were made for Russian use of if for a contract with an other country. The matching five digit Eastern Arabic numbers indicate a large number provided or sold to an unknown Arabic country or group. If this was a contract order these numbers could have been placed in Russia or by the new owners. They do seem to be somewhat consistent in style and placement, but use both four and five digits?
All that plus the fact that Egypt manufactured their own rifles, bayonets and scabbards, I doubt that your bayonet and scabbard were used by the Egyptians. Do your homework concerning the Yom Kippur War in 1973. Egypt and SYRIA attacked and invaded Israel. Several other Arabian groups were remotely involved supplying aid and weapons?
If the cover story on your item is to be believed, I would guess that your example is more likely to have been SYRIAN as their rifles and bayonets were totally Russian supplied. Still this is just a possibility with no proof of confirmation. Regards, Mike