Is this a bayonet for an AK?

[Beryl]

Sorry, not YOUR but OUR proverbial uncle workshop

[Mr. B.]

Hi Rafal, First of all, I was not declaring this bayonet a fake! Just a possibility, as you say, we’ve seen a lot of weird things come out of the Balkans in the past.
This bayonet is definitely well designed, manufactured and assembled. Not a backyard Bubba!
Still difficult to understand without knowing what and how it mounts on a rifle. The grooves at the top of the pommel would require a much wider than usual “T” lug or flanges.
Why the complex latch? Lots of material, machining and assembly when the usual button and coil spring would be much lighter and simpler to make and install.
It would require 3 separate points of attachment. The flanges at the rear, the teeth in the center and the muzzle ring in front. Seems a little complicated and heavy,
Thanks for your patience and great pictures. I guess we will have to wait for answers.
It appears to be a well made, nicely finished, item. Ready for mass production?
But why? What will it replace? The Kalashnikov designs have already progressed past this style of bayonet. Even the scabbard and hanger are the oldest style, Retro!
Enough for now. Cheers, Mike

[Beryl]

I just looked through a Soviet book which is quite poor quality but contains many experimental Soviet test bayonets from WWII and beyond.
There was a time when this language was compulsory in my country, so I will help

950. Experimental bayonet for a Kalashnikov automatic rifle from the 1950s.
841. As above – from 1952
842. As above - from the mid-1950s to the AKM prototype

None of them are identical to this one, but as you can see, they are somewhat simila

Best

[Beryl]

well ...

[CarlosC]

I have an AK-74 flash hider in 14x1L and attached it to one of my AK47s. The distance from the back of the teeth on the front sight base to the ring on the muzzle device is roughly 75mm, so the distance from the front of the bayonet hooks to the rear of the bayonet ring would have to be about 76mm to use the theory that the bayonet is designed for this combination.

A picture is probably best for what I'm measuring.

[Brian]

Whatever it is, it's refreshingly unusual and interesting.
Thanks Mike for all the work you put into research and theories.

[Beryl]

So we are "closing the discussion" because no one in the world knows what kind of bayonet it is and what kind of weapon it is?
Quite surprising for a weapon that was created around the mid-20th century
Well, thanks for trying

Kind regards Rafal

[Mr. B.]

This discussion is not closing! Someone out there has more information. We just have to find them. I have contacted several other collectors sites. I have checked with other collectors and checked all my reference material. Lots of opinions and ideas, but no confirmations.
In my opinion it is a professionally made prototype from one of the old ComBloc countries. Somewhere a research, design and engineering dept. was assigned a project and this is the result.
In answer to the question, “Is it Kalashnikov?”. Yes, in many ways it resembles the original AK47 bayonet and scabbard. The Original AK47 did not have a bayonet included in the design. Several years after the AK47 was released they decided to design a bayonet and scabbard to be included in all future production. It was to be simple and cheap AND be able to be retro fitted to all previous production with as little change and expense as possible.
Perhaps this is an original AK47 prototype that found its way out of Russia?

[Beryl]

I sent an inquiry to a collector who is currently working on a book about bayonets for Kalashnikov rifles, but he was also unable to answer what it is.
Maybe I'll be able to reach someone at the weapons factory in Radom - 11 oval and ask there.

[Mr. B.]

Yes, Marco is very knowledgeable about AK Bayonets and is a member of this forum. Good to see the pictures of his book. He has put a lot of time and effort into it. Mike

[Beryl]

Dear collectors,
I see that this investigation has been discontinued.
The only clue I can think of is that it's a bayonet for a submachine gun, not a carbine.
Thank you for your efforts and Happy New Year, I hope that one day the matter will be resolved, which I will be sure to let you know, and if you have any information, please let me know.

[Haberfeldtreiber]

Hello guys. Very interesting thread and bayonet variant.

I just remembered the early Yugo AK Variants... and if i look at pictures, this discussed bayonet could be for a Zastava M64 version. See the middle and last version in the attached picture. The long muzzle break and the old style attachement, but in the back of the bayonet, not in front at the ring would work here.
If the yugo origin is for sure.

Maybe also a "AK similar prototype" for the M56 SMG?
Otherwise a polish or east german prototype bayonet for the early and milled AK variants is also thinkable for me.

I am not a pro, but i wanted to share my thoughts.

[Mr. B.]

For me this is the best information so far regarding the mystery bayonet! The early M64 above looks like a possibility. I’ll have to do some more research. Not to sure about the M56 SMG. Will study some references / pictures. Mike

[mill_speer]

I also considered the Yugo M.64.
As far as I know, there was no bayonet intended for this, but you never know what the Yugo. had been tinkering with.

If the gas pickup bracket (circled in blue) has a rail at the bottom (blue line), there is still about 2.5cm missing from the gas pickup bracket to the mouth, the lock (red square) in the claw of the bayonet (yellow column) blocks a horizontal movement (green directional arrows).
I marked it in the picture.

Das Jugo m.64 hatte ich auch schon in Betracht.
Meines wissen, war dafür kein Bajonett vorgesehen, aber man kann ja nie wissen, an was die Jugos rumgetüftelt hatten.
Sollte der Gasabnahmebock (blau eingekreist) unten eine Schiene haben (blauer Strich) , so fehlt doch ca. 2,5cm am Gasabnahmebock zur Mündung,die Sperre (rotes Quadrat) in die Kralle des Bajonett (gelbe Säule)ein horizontale Verschiebung blockiert (grüne Richtungspfeile).
Habe das mal auf dem Bild gekennzeichnet.

[Mr. B.]

Hello Beryl,

Thanks to a suggestion from Benni it looks like we may have an answer. Yes, it appears to be an AK bayonet.
To be specific, possibly a test or prototype bayonet for an early Yugoslav Model M64 rifle.
This picture is not quite to scale, but does show the relative attachment points. Everything seems to line up. The muzzle ring fits the muzzle attachment. The teeth at the front of the front sight base would align with the teeth in the bayonet handle. The slots in the ears on the pommel would slide onto the ridges on the rear of the front sight base.
The early M64 rifles had a cast receiver and were the equivalent to the Russian AK47. It appears the Yugos borrowed the early style AK47 bayonet as well. Maybe even used a Polish AK47 bayonet and scabbard as a sample. That would explain the Polish style scabbard body?
Sorry for the terrible picture! Back to literal cut and paste. No photo shop, just iPad and cheap printer.

Cheers, Mike

[mill_speer]

If the front sight carrier in the picture below has a rail at the back, the bayonet can be securely and permanently attached to it. Only the muzzle compensator is a bit very short, it may be that it does not belong to the M.64 variant shown and a different compensator was screwed on just for photo purposes.
I have seen many Yugoslavian M.64 variants in pictures but I have not seen the variant with the special front sight carrier. I think that the origin of the AK 47 bayonet and the corresponding rifle are 99% clear.

Why Yugoslavia made such a complicated bayonet is just speculation.
I can only imagine that this circumvented patent rights.
The scabbard is also a mix of Polish with Russian ring bands.



Wenn der Kornträger auf dem Bild unten hinten eine Schiene hat so lässt sich das Bajonett darauf sicher und haltbar befestigen. Nur der Mündungskompensator ist etwas sehr kurz ,es kann sein, das dieser nicht zu dieser abgebildeten M.64 Variante gehört und nur für Fotozwecke ein anderer Kompensator aufgeschraubt wurde.
Ich habe viele Jugoslawische M.64 Varianten auf Bildern gesehen aber die Variante mit den speziellen Kornträger habe ich nicht gesehen.Ich denke das hiermit zu 99% die Herkunft des AK 47 Bajonett und die dazugehörige Gewehr geklärt ist.
Warum Jugoslawien so ein umständlich kompliziertes Bajonett hergestellt hat ist nur Spekulation.
Ich kann mir nur vorstellen das damit Patentrechte umgangen wurde.
Die Scheide ist auch ein Mix aus Polen mit russischen Ringbändern.

[ilian]

Hi guys,

i founf this in my documentation:



Hope it helps a bit

[Mr. B.]

Hi Marc,
Yes, These drawings help confirm what we could visualize from the enlarged pictures. From the one on the left we can “see” the standard muzzle attachment and a full section. On the right we can “see” that the bayonet would not mount over the granade launching spigot. However, the one on the right with the cut away section, we can “see” the exterior of the front sight base with the bayonet attaching points.
From an engineering stand point these confirm for me that this is a match for Rafal’s bayonet. Three dimensional pictures of the front sight base would be nice. It would also be nice to have pictures of the bayonet on a rifle.
Thanks to Benni and Marc for your contributions in helping solving this “mystery”.
Congratulations to Rafal for his RARE find and persistence in finding a documented identification.
Mike

[Mr. B.]

Here is a better picture that shows the relationship of the bayonet to the rifle. The line drawing is to Scale 1:1. The two pictures from Rafal, side annd top view, are scaled as close as I could get them. One of his pictures had a tape measure along the hilt. This indicated that the hilt measured 4” from the back of the muzzle ring to the end of the pommel.
It sure looks like a good match to me. Any questions or concerns? Mike

[Marco]

Hello everybody,
What a good mystery ! This bayonet is really strange...
Just want to say that as we can see on Ilian picture,
the right model is a grenade launcher you can screw at barrel on each M64 or M70.
I saw it in Sarajevo years ago.
So for me, the left model with flash hidder is a good way.
Regards,

Marco