Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Russian AK Bayonets
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Mr. B.
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:32 pm

pwcosol wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:50 pm
Looking at the pics of illian's example, this is what I would expect to see on a legitimate 6x3 Russian transitional:
Unaltered markings/serial number, low mold number on the scabbard (as they were just coming into service), and orange grips to match (not the result of a refurbishment re-grip).

I totally agree with this statement. I do question the latest "History and Evolution" information. Bayonets like Illian's seem to make it possible that the Type II scabbards became available before the Type II bayonets. The only other possibility is that there were stocks of new un-numbered unissued 6X3 Type I bayonets without scabbards left over. Possibly at the Arsenal or another storage facility. It would have been logical to combine, number and issue them with the new Type Ii scabbards as they became available. Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:17 pm

The pictures at the beginning of this post of my Izhevsk "Transitional" AKM 6X3 Type I with a Type II scabbard would be an example of a unit or field forced combination of previously un-numbered unissued bayonets and scabbards. No original numbers, just matching hand etched numbers. Spare replacements combined at some point in time? Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:30 pm

A personal observation on Russian AKM 6X3 and 6X4 "Transitional" bayonets and scabbards. Over the years I have had the opportunity to sort through several shipping containers of imported surplus Russian bayonets. Most of them have been 6X3 Type I and 6X4 Type II bayonets and scabbards. They all seem to have been reworked to minimum functional standards at some point in time to before being placed in storage and then sold as surplus. Many appear to have been issued several times and repaired and reworked various times. Almost all have forced hand etched numbers and most have been matching. The overall condition ranges from Very Good to marginally Good. The bayonets, scabbards, parts and accessories are randomly mixed as far as arsenals, age and condition. Some have replacement original parts and accessories. Often they are replacements made just for repair or rework. Sometimes removed and scrapped parts and accessories have been thrown into the containers as well.

Occasionally a few "Transitional" bayonets and scabbards are found mixed in. Like stated above, all show evidence of previous repair and/or being reworked. Hand etched forced numbers and mixed parts and pieces. Below are pictures of the two variations of transitional bayonets. I found these in the same shipping container and kept them as samples. The 6X3 bayonet and scabbard are both from Izhevsk. The both have original issue numbers ground off or lined out and hand etched matching numbers added. The 6X4 bayonet is from Tula, a second series with the star on the front of the crossguard. The original number has been removed. The scabbard is a late version Type I from Izhevsk without an original number, (NOS ?). Both have had matching hand etched rework numbers added. Mike
IMG_0147.JPG
IMG_0148.JPG

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RPBCPS
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:05 am

Mike, Martin & Fred,
Apologise for delay in reply, I have been 'under the weather', the last week, so not been online.

Thank you all for your replies to my post, which I found interesting to read, and again, I am sure we will never come upon a definitive answer on this, but it is interesting to exchange our thoughts and knowledge.

Stay safe
Richard

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:21 am

Mr. B. wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:46 pm
Some where in my files I have a color pictures of Russian troops on maneuvers in Poland during the Cold War Period. It was in a magazine, possibly "Life". One picture showed a crew of three men in Russian tanker uniforms and head gear taking a smoke break in front of a T-54/55 (?) tank. The 1st one leaning on the tank had a AKM 6X3 Type I bayonet and scabbard with a dark (plum) hilt hanging from his belt. The 2nd one also leaning against the tank had 6X3 Type I bayonet in a matching orange Type II scabbard. The 3rd man was sitting on the front fender and had a 6X4 Type II bayonet and scabbard that was more of a red/orange. Photographic proof!? I'll post it if I can find it. May have been lost due to unbacked up PC melt downs. Mike
I found this picture from life magazine. It is not the one I wanted, but it is one of the series that had the one I described above. This picture was one of a series that of the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia in the spring of 1968. It does show the mix of 6X3 & 6X4 bayonets and scabbards, but not the close up of the transitional. I'll keep looking for the other picture(s). Mike
Prague 1968 (4).jpg

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RPBCPS
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:19 pm

Here are some photos of the 'transitional' that I have added to my collection, thanks to a member of the board.
P1130839.JPG
P1130840.JPG
P1130841.JPG
P1130842.JPG
P1130844.JPG
Richard

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RPBCPS
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:22 pm

and a couple more from the bayonet
P1130845.JPG
P1130846.JPG
Richard

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MDIvie
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by MDIvie » Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:20 pm

The picture posted on Facebook in the Worldwide Bayonet Collectors Forum was easier to see. It didn't translate well. The bayonet in the guys teeth in the original picture is clearly a 6x3. No pommel demarcation line. Also of note is the fact that these two appear to be Air Force or maybe Paratroops based on the light color cap bands and shoulder boards and collar insignia. Wish this was in color, then we could really tell what's going on.

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I -II Transitional Bayonets and Scabbards

Post by mill_speer » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:58 am

Mike,
Nice job Mike
I want to write something about it.
First of all I have to explain something for further understanding,
Ischmasch was primary, i.e. the main business, Tula was secondary.
I can't really get used to the term 6x3 bayonet transition.
If you look closely, there is no such thing, even with the DDR M.59 / 2, I have my doubts, the orange DDR M.74 with polyamide sheath was also produced in small quantities at the same time, but was only issued from 1985.
We have the 6X3 with an AG-4 duroplastic sheath and the 6X4 with a metal sheath.
The first 6x4 with AG-4 duroplastic sheath were manufactured ischevesk in 1965.
Tula, as a secondary company, got the machines for making sheaths a little later.
Accordingly, Tula had initially delivered the 6x4 with a metal sheath in 1965.
The 6x3 transition with AG-4 duroplastic sheath was only delivered by Ischevesk from excess 6X3 bayonets.
I only have two 6X3 crossovers that I'm sure of!
The 6X3 from ilian and RPBCPS as well as the 6x4 from Dragur2791 convince me, whereas the one from Dragur2791 is the absolute hammer!
Every other 6X3 transition as well as Mike described it.
I'll show you photos of them.
Picture 1. 6X4 with metal scabbard dated 1967 Picture 2. 6X3 transition dated 1989 Picture 3., 4., 5 not dated.

Etwas will ich noch dazu schreiben.
Erstmal muss ich zur weiteren Verständigung etwas erklären,
Ischmasch war Primär ,also der Hauptbetrieb, Tula war Sekundär.
Mit dem Begriff 6x3 Bajonett Übergang kann ich mich nicht so richtig anfreunden.
Die gibt es genau betrachtet gar nicht, selbst bei dem DDR M.59/2 habe ich meine Zweifel, den zeitgleich wurde auch das orange DDR M.74 mit Polyamidscheide in geringen Mengen hergestellt, aber erst ab 1985 ausgegeben.
Wir haben das 6X3 mit AG-4 Duroplastscheide und das 6X4 mit Metallscheide.
Die ersten 6x4 mit AG-4 Duroplastscheide wurden 1965 ischevesk hergestellt.
Tula als sekundärer Betrieb bekam die Maschinen zur Scheidenfertigung etwas später.
Demnach hatte Tula das 6x4 1965 mit Metallscheide vorerst so ausgeliefert.
Das 6x3 Übergang mit AG-4 Duroplastscheide wurde nur von Ischevesk aus überschüssigen 6X3 Bajonetten so ausgeliefert.
Ich habe nur zwei 6X3 Übergang von den ich überzeugt bin!
Das von 6X3 von ilian und RPBCPS sowie das 6x4 von Dragur2791 überzeugen mich, wobei das von Dragur2791 der absolute Hammer ist !!!
Alle anderen 6X3 Übergang sowie Mike es beschrieben hat.
Ich zeige euch Fotos von denen.
Bild 1. 6X4 mit Metallscheide datiert 1967 Bild 2. 6X3 Übergang datiert 1989 Bild 3. , 4. ,5 nicht datiert.
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