Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Russian AK Bayonets
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MDIvie
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by MDIvie » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:09 am

I believe Ilian is correct. The second mark is a T in triangle which, I believe, is a Tula proof mark.

MDI

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:21 pm

Alright you guys present a good argument. I have spent the last hour studying the bayonet I believe has both arsenal marks on the cross guard. Different angles, lighting and magnification. Still not 100% sure as the triangle mark is not clear. It could contain an arrow or a "T". I'll go with the "T" you suggest as it would be more logical.

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:56 pm

Brian wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:09 pm
I still dispute that fact about the square butt ones.
If you look at the article linked previously: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/201 ... Newsletter
he pictures those as correct for the 6x3 type 2
Brian, I tend to disagree with the author of this article on the point of two variations, (Type I and Type II), of the Russian 6X3 production. He quotes, "This bayonet has two versions which apparently have minor differences such as the material and color of the handle", with no further information provided. The line drawings, (not pictures), infer that the different shapes of the grips differentiate the Type I vs the Type II versions with no further information. Also note the line drawings of the Type I infer that it has both the round vs angular cross guard hooks. Where as the Type II is shown with only the angular hook. I would tend to agree with two variations due to the change in the hooks, (early vs late?), but not because of the shape, material or color of the grip panels. I would need to see more information/documentation/pictures. To me the color and shape of the grips on a new bayonet could even be a random change due to the availability of the parts, (grip panels) at any time during assembly. The square pommel grips are found on both early and late production from both Tula and Izhevsk. Were the grip panels molded by both arsenals or even provided by a sub-contractor. The possibility also exists of the square grips being produced during and post 6X3 bayonet production as replacements and rework/refinishing items.
Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:03 pm

As a further aside, what does he mean by differences in materials and color? I have seen no references to a different material used to mold the grip panels and wide variety of colors and marbling in both new and reworked Russian 6X3 bayonets. Even the square pommel grips vary in color, see pictures above. Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:17 pm

In my collection I have two flat end pommel 6X3's in my collection.
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As you can see both scabbards have been renumbered.

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:57 am

Very Nice pair! They look like twins, may have been inspected, reworked and parts (grip panels?) replace about the same time. Similar numbering, same hand writing? Just curious, are the bayonets from Tula or Izhevsk? Are the arsenal marks on the right side of the cross guard or on the flat behind the muzzle ring? So far all of the "Flat Butt" 6X3 bayonets I have seen or owned have been from both arsenals and from both early and late production. This leads me to believe that they were only installed as replacements on reworked bayonets. Perhaps from an independent or sub-contractor after 6X3 production had ended. Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:36 pm

Mike,
Thanks again for your feedback, improving my ignorance with your knowledge is appreciated.
They are both Izhevsk marked, an the only difference I can see is the release button, one has a concentric circle design on it.
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The handwriting on the electro stencilling does look very similar. There Izhevsk arsenal marks on both these examples are located on the flat behind the muzzle ring. Here are some photos of the other markings on the bayonet.
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Richard

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:58 pm

Excellent detail pictures. Thanks for sharing. Interesting that they both have different like new release buttons. My guess is that they were replace along with the grip panels when they were reconditioned. Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:08 pm

Here are my other 6x3's, just been sorting through them all. I did not realise I had so many, mind you they are all arsenal reworks, apart from one Tula, which is very well worn and abused, and one Izhevsk, which is actually an HB-3 Exp.

These are the Tula marked 6X3's:
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The one on the far right has a six digit the serial number on it, any ideas why that may have been done?
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And the Izhevsk marked 6X3's, including the two "Flat end pommel" versions already shown above:
P1130623.JPG
The HB-3 Exp in my collection, actually fits onto a AKM, no pin in the muzzle ring, nor alterations to the catch.
P1130625.JPG
I am not sure where I go that one from, until I took it out of the scabbard today, I did not realise it was an HB-3 Exp.

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:34 pm

I believe the bayonet and scabbard you refer to as an HB-3 Exp. is actually not a military issue item. These pieces are fully functional standard bayonets but marked on the blades for awards, presentation and ceremonial use. They are not numbered for issue and do not have the usual military acceptance proof marks. They are controlled by the same Russian laws that regulate the ownership and possession of all military issued weapons.

The other type of collectors bayonets that you refer to are the de-militarized versions of the AK bayonets that are available for the civilian trade. They must meet certain standards to be legally de-militarized. Like the firearms and weapons laws in the USA these rules appear to be constantly changing. Some have the locking assemblies deactivated by cutting, grinding or welding. Others have a pin permanently installed through the muzzle ring. Another method is to partially cut through the blade either horizontally or vertically near the cross guard. Most recently some have been found with the blade weakened by high heat removing the blade temper / hardness. The torch marks near the cross guard are usually visible and the bayonets also have marking identifying them as legal. Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by RPBCPS » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:58 pm

Mike,
Thank you for that feedback, as always it is appreciated. I thought the 6X3 HB-3 Exp bayonets, as marked on the blade, were demilitarised somehow, hence I was surprised when I could find nothing altered in the locking assembly etc.
P1130624.JPG
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by ilian » Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:38 am

In Russian bayonets are prohibited, it's why we can found some MMG or Maket bayonets with cut in the blade, pin in the ring, or overheated blade.

But HB-XExp variants are not deactivated just made for export to be sale with rifle or in a box to present all the variants (6x3; 6x4; 6x5).

:)

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:26 pm

For those that might be interested. According to a recently available Russian Kalashnikov reference book there is a way to distinguish between scabbards produced by the Izhevsk and Tula arsenals. Most of the available Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets have been reworked, refinished and renumbered. Components and accessories have been replaced and no attempt has been made to keep the original bayonets and scabbards together. The bayonets and scabbards were mixed together randomly, early and late production, it difference as long as they were functional. With this new information it is possible to restore early and late production according to the different arsenals. The forced matching numbers are not important as they were random to start with.

The two small rivets securing the stop to the cutter plate are flat topped on the back side on the Izhevsk made ones. They are domed/round topped on the ones from Tula. Pictured below: Izhevsk on the left and Tula on the right. Mike
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by MDIvie » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:47 pm

Good info. Both of my Tula 6X3's are in Izhevsk scabbards and I have one Izhevsk 6X3 in a Tula scabbard so I willl be able to do a reunite.

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:11 am

I am separating all the components of my 15-20 reworked 6X3 bayonets and reassembling them as close to the original condition as possible. Bayonets and scabbards combined by manufacture and by chronological date. Tula in Tula and early vs late manufacture. No attempt to have matching numbers. I may even sand off the assorted hand etched numbers and refinish/repaint the scabbards and the cross guards. After all that's what was done during the various rework operations to start with. I will try to actually RESTORE the bayonets to the most original condition as possible. Mike

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by MDIvie » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:23 am

Mike,

I like that plan.
I have some original Russian formula black paint so I will probably due this to at least get one Tula in a Tula scabbard.

Martin

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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Brian » Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:57 pm

Good info!
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:02 pm

I have sorted out my Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards by arsenal and age. I found 5 Tula scabbards and 7 Tula bayonets, all the rest are Izhevsk. The Tula scabbards vary from very early to late style ( Left to right). The oldest has a flat top cutter pivot, no insulator stop and an uncut hanger bar. the second one is also early, but the hanger bar has been notched. The third one is transitional has it has a flat top cutter pivot and no insulator stop, but has a loop style hanger bracket. The last two are both later style with rounded top pivots, insulator stops and loop style brackets. Note there are several other minor variations as well. Different rivets and hanger bars set at different heights, etc.. Mike
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:21 pm

Of the seven Tula bayonets five were early style with round hooks and the stars on the cross guard. The 6th bayonet is transitional as it has a newer angular hook, but still has the star on the cross guard. The 7th bayonet is late style with angular hook and the star on top behind the muzzle ring. Note, this last late bayonet and scabbard (#6553) is the only one that was together as found.
The insulators were all mixed. Some had no markings, others had generic markings inside the hanger hook pocket. Only three had arsenal marks, all were Tula which made sorting easy. I am not sure of any other way to identify source and use of insulators. Mike
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Re: Russian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonets and scabbards

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:45 pm

The next step in sorting the Izhevsk bayonets and scabbards went easier and faster. I found only two early style scabbards. both have flat top cutter pivots, no insulator stops and notched bar type hanger brackets. They are pictured below with a late style scabbard for comparison. All the remaining Izhevsk scabbards are later style.
This worked out well as I only found two early style bayonets with the round hooks on the cross guards. The remaining Izhevsk bayonet are all later style.
Sorting bayonets and scabbards by arsenals and age all complete. Now all I have to do is assign appropriate hangers and straps. Eventually, as I have time, I will try to cosmetically remove hand etched numbers and touch up the metal finish. most have already been touched up or repainted during the reworking. Mike
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