Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

For the Identification of Unknown AK Bayonets and Related Discussion such as Displaying, Use, etc

Moderator: Mr. B.

Post Reply
User avatar
Brian
Site Admin
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:37 pm
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Brian »

Picked this one up off an overseas auction today, in the hope that it is one of those earlier narrow pommel Romanian Type 1's.
The serials and insulator are correct, but I am not familiar enough with the markings and other features to tell for sure. The arrow in triangle marking on this one are indistinct, and wanted to check that it wasn't a Russian one that had been serialed in Romania. It lacks the unpainted grey welding spot too, but has some interesting markings. I just read that these do have black painted scabbards, so perhaps that is correct. Be a while before I receive it, so wanted to maybe get some thoughts. Hanger isn't the usual 2 piece one..replaced?

Thanks,
Brian
Attachments
Romy5.jpg
Romy3.jpg
Romy2.jpg
Romy1.jpg
Romy4.jpg
Brian
- Admin -
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Mr. B. »

From the pictures, it sure looks like a flat pommel Romanian to me. Romy markings are difficult, but what I see appears to be Romy and no Russian ones. The button ridge and the small crease on the opposite side of the pommel appear to be the more squared ridge version. The last picture above also confirms it to me. Notice the small ramps from the center channel to the top edges of the grips on the right side of the picture. They don't match from side to side and this is common with the flat pommel grips. Also, most but not all of the flat pommels have black painted scabbards. Exceptions seem to be when the paint is worn off or removed or if the scabbard has been replace for any reason. The flat pommels usually have circular wear marks on the sides of the cross guard from either a single or dual hook hanger which is hard to see in these pics. the hanger could well be correct as usually these are found with one of the hook styles. Also I've noticed the most of them also are found with the light gray insulators.
Best of all this bayonet and scabbard have matching serial numbers! I don't remember seeing the AB prefix on the flat pommels before and the three digit number is also rare! The person with the knowledge on the Romy bayonets is member Big Uno, perhaps he can provide more detailed information on this item!? Mike
User avatar
furtium
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:19 am
Location: North Idaho

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by furtium »

Yes, definitely Romanian per Mr. B. Cugir arsenal mark on pedestal seals the deal. Nice serialization! My two examples are serialized ST 1553 and EF 0879.
User avatar
FirearmFrank
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:10 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by FirearmFrank »

nice find.
Firearm Collector / Builder. AK Bayonet Collector
Hungarian AMD65, Converted Saiga .223, Plum Bulgarian AK74, Yugo M70

WTB: Lithuanian Camo AK Bayonet Frog, Black Egyptian Maadi Bayonet
User avatar
MDIvie
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Allen, TX, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by MDIvie »

I've looked through a couple of hundred Romanian bayonets at shows in the DFW area since I learned anout these and still haven't found one.
User avatar
Brian
Site Admin
Posts: 391
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:37 pm
Location: South Africa
Contact:

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Brian »

I've given up looking at US websites and eBay. Too many collectors, and too many people who know what they are looking for. They go through the masses of imports and take out what is unusual and valuable and stockpile it.
Now I check the overseas European auction sites, where there are fewer collectors. But have to have a friend there who is kind enough to buy what you ask for and reship. I'm lucky to have a great guy in Poland, Finland and Romania. But takes a lot of time to find anything.
I actually envy you guys in the USA who can speak to an importer and dig through piles of imports bought from Bosnia etc etc...
Brian
- Admin -
pwcosol
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:14 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by pwcosol »

Brian wrote:I've given up looking at US websites and eBay. Too many collectors, and too many people who know what they are looking for.
Don't despair. I got my thin pommel off of Ebay and quite reasonably. It was sans the suspension and with mediocre photos, was likely ignored by most potential bidders. It is in the "ST" serial bloc. I had one of the Romy Hungarian-pattern suspensions (often seen on this variant but missing the belt fob) I was able to use. A fellow collector in the UK was kind enough to send me a belt fob gratis for it to complete the suspension.

You are fortunate in having cultivated some contacts in the international community. They may have opportunity to acquire stuff which may be quite scarce elsewhere (and vice-versa). I think networking on sites like this offers we collectors an excellent way to both share knowledge and build our own collections. I, for one, prefer to offer spares or duplicates to other collectors in this way rather than the online/auction approach. As for importers here in the U.S.A., fortunate are the collectors whom live close to one or more and have established a relationship with them which may allow access to "cherry-pick" their merchandise! No such luck where I live...
ilian
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 7:13 pm
Location: France

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by ilian »

MDIvie wrote:I've looked through a couple of hundred Romanian bayonets at shows in the DFW area since I learned anout these and still haven't found one.
Hi Martin,

i have one to trade, i am going to make some pics :-)

Edit with pics:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

;)
User avatar
MDIvie
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Allen, TX, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by MDIvie »

What are you looking for as far as trade goes?
ilian
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 7:13 pm
Location: France

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by ilian »

I will contact you in private message.
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Mr. B. »

I am not sure who ended up with this excellent example of a Romanian AKM 6X3 Type I Flat Pommel Bayonet with matching scabbard. Who ever it is, I hope they display it with a proper correct hanger. Please note, as with most flat pommel bayonets, they are early production and came with either the one or two piece hangers with snap hooks. As evidence observe the semi-circular wear, (scratch), marks on the side of the cross guard that come contact with the snap hook. The fabric and leather hanger above is a much later style and is also sought after because of the fabric color. Mike
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Mr. B. »

Here are pictures of the wear marks and the correct hanger. Sometimes there are also similar wear marks on the sides of the grip panels from the upper snap hook on the two piece hanger. Mike
1234567-2 (2)_LI.jpg
1234567-2 (2)_LI.jpg (839.92 KiB) Viewed 18033 times
IMG_0174.JPG
User avatar
mill_speer
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 6:57 pm
Location: Sachsen-Anhalt

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by mill_speer »

Rum.TypII with single stage handle
First model
These are very rare, as they were not treated with care, few of the least damage were overhauled. The rest was scrapped.
It would seem that an overhaul was extremely costly or the abrasions were extreme.
Incidentally, the numbers of Rum.Typ II are coded and give no indication of production B.z. Periods.
I'll show you one with a one-step grip and a one-step revision.
Attachments
rum. M.59erste Variante (11) - Kopie.JPG
rum. M.59erste Variante (4).JPG
rum. M.59erste Variante (8) - Kopie.JPG
rum. M.59erste Variante Abnahmestempel(2).JPG
User avatar
mill_speer
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 6:57 pm
Location: Sachsen-Anhalt

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by mill_speer »

Rum.TypII
First model revised.
Best Regards
Attachments
2. Rum.M.52 Überholt (1).JPG
2. Rum.M.52 Überholt  (4).JPG
2. Rum.M.52 Überholt (9) - Kopie.JPG
2. Rum.M.52 Überholt (6).JPG
2. Rum.M.52 Überholt (3).JPG
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Mr. B. »

I agree that the Romanian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonet and scabbard with the "flat" pommel was early production. This and the fact that production was limited makes them difficult to find, especially in decent condition. Yes, I have seen a few that have been reworked, but not out of proportion with the rework of the more standard ones. More about these bayonets under the "Romanian" heading.

I disagree about the lettering and numbering on the bayonets not being an indication of production. it may be a code and not in a specific order. However the bayonets and scabbards are number matched to the firearms which also have production dates. Many of these weapons have been exported and imported, many with matching bayonets. The serial numbers, ( including dates), of the firearms are recorded here during import and all subsequent sales. I have a 13 page list of the imported firearms numbers and from that can estimate production dates on the similar bayonet numbers. For example if a PM Md 63/64 rifle has a serial number 1966 ST 1419 and you find a bayonet numbered ST 2315. it was probably made in 1966. This can be also confirmed if rifles with RS and TU were also produced in 1966. This system is not perfect, but gives a general idea. By the way all the flat pommel bayonets I have seen have code numbers indicating production from 1963 to 1966 in random batches.
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: Is this a Romy thin/narrow pommel?

Post by Mr. B. »

If anyone is interested, the list of Romanian firearms serial numbers also indicate the single letter numbers are exclusive to the PSL sniper rifles in 7.62x54r similar to the Russian SVD. Therefore the corresponding numbered bayonets and scabbards are issued with the PSL rifles and are also somewhat rare. Note that the only difference from the other more common bayonets are the numbers. See the PSL post under the Romania heading.

Both the early flat pommel and PLS bayonets can be found mixed in randomly with the more common variations as they were imported in large quantities as military surplus. Mike
Post Reply