Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

For the Identification of Unknown AK Bayonets and Related Discussion such as Displaying, Use, etc
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ilian
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 7:13 pm
Location: France

Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by ilian » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:54 am

Hi,

I found an insteresting scabbard mixed up with a russian AKM type 2 bayonet.
The scabbard is not in good condition.

Serial is C-361, no arsenal marks, no mold marks. Plum colored but used by sun and utilization i guess (hard to know the original color).

I will post pics a bit later.

PS : I'm also waiting a chromed egyptian AKM type II bayonet.

ilian
Posts: 192
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 7:13 pm
Location: France

Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by ilian » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:27 pm

The pictures :)

I just discovered a "21" on the rear side, so it could be russian for export?
Attachments
IMG_4167 - Copie.JPG
IMG_4175 - Copie.JPG
IMG_4178 - Copie.JPG

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mill_speer
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Location: Sachsen-Anhalt

Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by mill_speer » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:03 pm

Russian Scabbard from Ishmash.
Recognizable by flat rivets on the scissor flap, flat weld seam on the back of the shear bolt.
The 21 is the Mold number.
are the initials "J K" above the engraved number?
the first letter "J" does not exist in the Russian alphabet.
Best Regards

Russische Scheide von Ischmasch.
Erkennbar an den flachen Nieten am Scherenschlag , flache Schweißnaht auf der Rückseite des Scherbolzen.
Die 21 ist die Formnummer.
sind die Initialen "J K " über der Gravierten Nummer?
den ersten Buchstabe "J " gibt es im russischen Alphabet nicht.

ilian
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Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by ilian » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:57 pm

That's what i tought, but never see this king of serial number, yes "JK" is hand engraved.

But that serial number isn't russian!?

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mill_speer
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Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by mill_speer » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:18 am

But that serial number isn't russian !?
  I think the serial number is not Russian.
I only saw a similar milled number on Bulgarian bayonets.
Attachments
2.Bulgarien M.59.2 mit gefräster W.Nummer   (1).JPG

ilian
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Location: France

Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by ilian » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:39 pm

Could it be a russian bayonet for export to Cuba?

Like romanian with A prefix to South Africa?

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Mr. B.
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Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:06 pm

I have been studying the mystery scabbard. The serial number C-361 is a complete mystery. I have no memory of anything similar or relevant. The scabbard appears to be molded of a different material I addition to being weather worn. This, plus the lack of a Russian arsenal mark. All this plus the fact that I have never seen or heard of anything similar indicates small quantities, perhaps experimental, for testing / trials?

Perhaps some notes and questions. Is it actually a 6X4 or maybe 6X5 scabbard? How long is it? Could it be for a 6X4 Type 4 bayonet? These Type 4 bayonets were made in small quantities by TsNII ToshMash with molded in place grips of PA6 material instead of AG4V. Perhaps they also tried to make scabbards also? That would explain the lack of an arsenal mark. They are usually found with Izhevsk 6X4 Type II scabbards. The PA6 material is usually a more reddish brown color unless it is colored green for border guards or presentation use.

Note in the picture below the length of the 6X4 compared to 6X5. Also differences in molding, shape of tear drop, shape of ribs, (rounded vs more pointed), shape and width of hanger slot. Mike
45163637_10155989731753041_751733282411905024_n.jpg
45285323_10155989739683041_5727670147158638592_n.jpg

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Mr. B.
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Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:12 pm

Maybe compare side by side the mystery scabbard with the other 6X4 and 6X5 scabbards from Russia and different countries.
in your collection and references. Note similarities and differences. Maybe that will help!? Mike

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Mr. B.
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Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:18 pm

Below is a borrowed picture of a Russian AKM 6X4 Type 4 bayonet and scabbard. I will try to find more / better pictures of scabbard. This one appears to have numbers / markings removed and no reverse side. Mike
81067027_2740890865977702_3162465629286432768_o.jpg

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Mr. B.
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Re: Unknown type AKM 2 scabbard

Post by Mr. B. » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:18 am

Thanks to you I learned something new today. I did some research and translation regarding 6X4 and 6X5 scabbards. I discovered that the Russians made longer 6X4 scabbards before the 6X5 scabbards were introduced. I am not sure why the longer scabbard was made. Either to strengthen them or provide additional wire cutting leverage. It's also possible that it was done at the same time they were testing the 6X4 Type 4 molded on hilt and new molding material. Your mystery scabbard may be one of these prototype / test designs. Perhaps the molds were provided to a sub-contractor for testing?

Pictured below are from the Russian reference. On the left is a standard 6x4 scabbard. The middle one is the LONG 6X4. note that the interior is still for the 6X4 bayonet and the 6X5 will not fit. On the right is the standard 6X5 scabbard.
Mike
Scan_20200220 (2).png

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