AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

For the Identification of Unknown AK Bayonets and Related Discussion such as Displaying, Use, etc

Moderator: Mr. B.

Post Reply
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

One of these AK47 bayonets was pictured on another site recently. It was identified as being Chinese manufactured and issued. I found no reference to them in my Chinese PLA military research. I dug through my other references and found the second picture. Does anyone have one of these bayonets or any information about them? They would make an interesting topic for pictures and details here. It would be interesting to see more detailed pictures including the scabbards and hangers. I have discussed them with several collector and heard several theories. Chinese, North Korean, Indian, Pakistani or ????? Commercial, contract, military, fakes, reproduction or copies ?????? MIke
Attachments
Unknown AK47 1 (2).jpg
Unknown AK47 1 (2).jpg (25.07 KiB) Viewed 18732 times
39603369_10156466810591544_5573292048829644800_n.jpg
39603369_10156466810591544_5573292048829644800_n.jpg (12.22 KiB) Viewed 18732 times
ilian
Posts: 244
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 7:13 pm
Location: France

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by ilian »

never see this kind of marks ... hard task to identify their provenance
User avatar
mill_speer
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 6:57 pm
Location: Sachsen-Anhalt

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by mill_speer »

Original China AK 47 military bayonet.
This has brought a friend directly from China.
The swastika became, as many Chienese at that time not particularly educated were attached, as luck or protection symbol.


Original China AK 47 Militärbajonett.
Das hier hat ein Freund direckt aus China mitgebracht.
Das Swastika wurde, da viele Chienesen damals nicht besonders gebildet waren angebracht, als Glücks oder Schutzsymbol .
G.
Attachments
China M 56 Herstellermarke - Kopie.jpg
China M 56 Griffkopf Nr - Kopie.jpg
China M 56 bbb - Kopie.jpg
China M 56 aa - Kopie.jpg
User avatar
MDIvie
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Allen, TX, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by MDIvie »

The Swastika, hankenkreuz, bent cross or what ever you want to call it was a Buddhist good luck symbol long before the Nazi's misappropriated it. No surprise to find it on any Asian AK bayonet.

It was also the Thunderbird symbol for Indians in the American Southwest with the reverse direction being the Lightning Hawk.
The Oklahoma National Guard (45th division) used a yellow swastika on a red equilateral diamond from it's inception up until 1942 when it was changed to the modern Thunderbird symbol for obvious reasons. An original 45th division patch with provenance is worth a small fortune as many were destroyed because of the Nazi's.

MDI
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

Yes, I agree the original origins of the swastika stamped on this bayonet are probably Asian. The most common translation/usage during the 1950-1970 time period would be the Chinese Mandarin symbol for "wan". Wan can be interpreted in many ways this being the most common definition for the right facing swastika:

wàn
swastika, a sacred and auspicious symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, later adopted by Nazi Germany.
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

Keep in mind the Mandarin "Wan" has a wide variety of meanings. As a quantity; wàn = ten thousand - a great number. Or perhaps we should consider this meaning for this bayonet; wán = to play - to have fun - to trifle with - toy - used for amusement - curio or antique (Taiwan pr. [wan4]) - to keep for entertainment. Maybe this one would be more applicable as a proof mark; wán = to finish - to be over - whole - complete - entire. Or this one as a sign of ownership/issue/usage; wǎn = ensign of royalty.


Regardless of the meaning of the swastika, What are these bayonets? Mike
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

I have examined the few pictures that are available and discussed this bayonet and scabbard with a couple collectors from Europe and Asia that own them. Both of these samples supposedly came from China. The question is who made them and how did they get there. China may have imported small quantities of Russian AK47 rifles and bayonets along with the machinery and a license to build them. However, as they started production of their version, the Type 56, they went with the attached folding spike bayonet and supposedly never produced or issued a blade bayonet. No evidence exists indicating that the Chinese ever purchased the machinery or manufactured a traditional flat blade AK47 bayonet. One would also assume that any AK47 rifles and bayonets imported from Russia or any other ComBloc county would have had that countries markings. For example the Russian marks found on the Finnish, early East German and Bulgarian AK47 bayonets and parts.

The two bayonets with the swastikas appear to be quite similar in materials and manufacture/assembly and are the same pattern as the European versions. They both have reddish colored molded plastic(?) grip panels, natural finished blades and blued metal hilts. The machining, fit and finish of the metal parts, is somewhat crude compared to other manufactures. Neither scabbard sample has a hanger attached, but both are conventional flattened or folded tube crimped on the end with a one piece flat metal hanger bar spot welded in place. This hanger bar almost meets on the front side.

It is my observation the these bayonets and scabbards bare a strong resemblance to the North Korean AK47 bayonets in my collection. Could they have been made in North Korea, possibly for export or contact sales to other countries or fractions? Pictures to follow. Mike
User avatar
MDIvie
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:48 am
Location: Allen, TX, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by MDIvie »

Mike these certainly remind me of the early production North Korean AK47 bayonets.

Just a minor correction to what you state above. The Chinese did produce blade bayonets, but as far s I know, only for export.

MDI
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

Below are pictures of North Korean AK47 bayonets and scabbards showing similarities with the unknown Chinese(?) bayonets with the swastikas. Size, orientation and position of the stamped star on the left side of the cross guard. The stamped four digit block numbers at an angle on the left side of the pommel. The color and attachment of the grip panels. The size, shape and attachment of the scabbard hanger bar. Is it possible they were made in North Korea for export or contract sales to other Asian countries?


Keep in mind that the Chinese did manufacture a copy of the AK47 bayonet and scabbard to export with the civilian export AK47 rifles during the 1980s. However these bayonets were in my opinion much better made and finished and do not resemble the swastika bayonets. I am also reminded that in the past few years hand made copies of AK47 bayonets have appeared on the market from not only China, but also India, Pakistan, (Kyber?), and possibly other countries in eastern Asia. Let us not forget about the AK47 bayonets from Indonesia. Does anyone else have any information, ideas, opinions about the swastika bayonets? Mike
IMG_0199.JPG
IMG_0197.JPG
IMG_0196.JPG
IMG_0209.JPG
IMG_0206.JPG
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

Continued North Korean AK47 bayonet and scabbard pictures for comparison. Mike
IMG_0204 (3).JPG
IMG_0213.JPG
IMG_0214.JPG
IMG_0215.JPG
IMG_0216.JPG
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

My apologizes MDI. Your reply was posted in the middle of my rant. I agree with the North Korean assessment. It would be nice to see more detailed pictures of the swastika bayonets and scabbards for more identifying details. Possible unseen or hidden markings. scabbard construction and drain hole. Also I do not see a rivet/attachment for a scabbard drag? Construction/assembly details from all angles would certainly help. One strange thing I noticed is that both of the two samples appear to be in VG/EXC condition with little if any wear, but yet neither one has a hanger, which were usually permanently attached. For some reason I keep thinking of the hand made copies/fakes that were on eBay a few years ago. However both owners are knowledgeable collectors and claim they came from reliable sources in China. Mike
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

Here is a better picture of one of the swastika bayonets and scabbards. It goes with the closeup picture of the marking that is roughly stamped on the cross guard retaining pin/rivet. Note that due to the heavy marking stamp on the pin/rivet, that it has been driven out of position on the opposite side and protrudes slightly. I wonder why they would choose that position to stamp a marking after grinding the pins/rivets flush. Perhaps the swastika stamp was applied as an after thought at some point in time after it was made? Mike
39805008_10156466810456544_6627487605514567680_n.jpg
Last edited by Mr. B. on Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mr. B.
Posts: 1472
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 pm
Location: Iowa City, Iowa, USA

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by Mr. B. »

Another note: If there is a drain hole on the scabbard it must be on the unseen front side of the scabbard. The North Korean ones have the drain hole on the back side. Mike
User avatar
mill_speer
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 6:57 pm
Location: Sachsen-Anhalt

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by mill_speer »

My respect Mike!
Since you have very thoroughly researched.
The Ch. M. 47 does not necessarily have to be made in China, it can also be imported from North Korea, there is much to support it.
Convince the placement of the swastika and its use in the period 1950-1970, as you have explored.
The processing is very superficial and coarse.
Nevertheless, it was used by the Chinese military.



Mein Respekt Mike !
Da hast Du ja sehr gründlich Recherchiert.
Das Ch. M. 47 muss nicht unbedingt in China gefertigt wurden sein ,es kann auch aus Nordkorea importiert sein, es spricht vieles dafür. Überzeugen würde, die Platzierung des Hakenkreuz und Verwendung dessen im Zeitraum 1950-1970 ,wie Du es erforscht hast.
Die Verarbeitung ist sehr oberflächlich und Grob.
Dennoch wurde es vom Chinesischen Militär verwendet.
Attachments
China M 47- 56 bb (8).jpg
China M 47- 56 bb (7).jpg
AK47 Bajonett . .jpg
User avatar
mill_speer
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 6:57 pm
Location: Sachsen-Anhalt

Re: AK47 Bayonet with swastika mark ?

Post by mill_speer »

I show a variant of the Ch. M.47 bayonet, which was also brought by a friend from China.

Ich zeige noch eine Variante des Ch. M.47 Bajonett das ebenfalls von einen Freund aus China mitgebracht wurde.
Gerhard
Attachments
AK47 Holzgriff 01 - Kopie.JPG
AK47 China Holzgriff 02 - Kopie.JPG
AK47 Holzgriff 02.JPG
Post Reply