Early Russian AK47 Type I

[Anthony]

Can someone please advise ... did they ever have scabbards with a leather hanger and retaining strap, no drain hole in the front and possibly none at all and double bands.

[Mr. B.]

Yes, Russia produced AK47 6X2 scabbards with leather hangers and hilt straps. Yes, they made the scabbards without drain holes. Yes, they made the original early scabbard versions with the two separate hanger bands before changing over to the one piece stamped metal bracket.
Not sure why you are asking. Russian references list 15-20 different variations. The AK47 scabbards were made by the Russians and others in large quantities for both internal use and for export to other countries. Not only were there lots of variations in manufacturing but materials used as well. These scabbards have been issued, used, returned, repaired, refinished and reissued many times over the years. They have few if any markings and are usually un-numbered. Very difficult to determine what is original and what has been reworked or replaced.
The best way to get help identifying one is to post pictures here and getting advice/opinions from others.
Regards, Mike

[Anthony]

... The best way to get help identifying one is to post pictures here and getting advice/opinions from others. ...

Managed to reformat these to show better clarity of the scabbard in question. The bayo is legit with correct inspection/arsenal marks and number placement but the seller unnerved me with the comment 'thinks it has the correct scabbard' ... so I thought I'd check because as it's a little pricey.

I'd not come across this configuration before so I thought it best to ask and I knew that you'd tell me for sure.

Thanks Mike ... always appreciate your knowledge.

IMG_3482.JPG (40.5 KiB) Viewed 2130 times

IMG_3480.JPG (38.97 KiB) Viewed 2130 times

[Mr. B.]

Very possible the scabbard could be early Russian made. I can not tell from the pictures. Is there a flattened diamond Russian military acceptance mark on the right side of the pommel? The numbers on the left side of the pommel look like the ones on the 1st Finnish contract. That would fit with the 2 band scabbard with no drain hole. Also how is the hilt strap attached to the hanger belt loop?
Take a look at the Russian AK47 bayonets and scabbards on this forum under Finland. Also under Russia / page 2 /Russian bayonets for AK-47.
Note the drain holes are different sizes and positions and could possible have been added after they were made. Also remember the also could always be a replacement added at any time or place.
Mike

[Mr. B.]

Here are scans of a couple pages in a Russian reference. Drawings of a few of the possible combinations of material and methods of assembling Russian AK47 scabbard hangers. For both the 2 band and later 1 piece hanger brackets. Add to this all the possibilities used in making replacements for repair/rework over the years. Either in arsenals, depots or in the field.
Mike

[Anthony]

Thanks Mike ... you're correct of course. It had been nagging at me from the first time I saw the pics. The seller had said it was early Russian but I had my doubts. It is a Russian made piece with the Izhevsk stamp on the cross guard. I could not see an acceptance mark on the pommel but then the pics are were not clear. The serial number is not of the Russian style. The pics I've seen do not show how the retaining strap is fitted. I'm pretty sure that there are no drainage holes.
I'd completely forgotten about the fact that it could be Finnish ...
I'll buy it because I don't have one and I'm now happy with the findings.
Thanks again
Anthony

[Anthony]

It arrived. Do any of the features shown here help determine what it's all about?

[Mr. B.]

Anthony, before I start with the details, let me say this is a very nice, interesting one of a kind bayonet and scabbard. The pictures are great, but they just seem to add to the confusion for me.
For my best guess, I'll go with my 1st impression of both the bayonet and scabbard together. They appear to be Russian Izhevsk made, early 1st contract for Finland. Early 2 band scabbard, no drain hole, Finnish style numbers. The scabbard could also be early style Russian scabbard that was made without the hole or accidentally missed. The scabbard body could have been replaced at some point with an undrilled one as well as the hanger assembly. A result of repair or rework. I have seen both the Russian and Finnish scabbards with the all leather hangers, both that I have have one rivet securing the hilt strap to the hanger.
The earliest Russian bayonets had the Izhevsk arsenal mark and the numbers on the right side following the curve of the pommel, some stamped, some hand etched. Later Russian stamped numbers were moved to the left side of the pommel and followed the curve of the pommel. The Finnish contract numbers were all stamped on the left side in pretty much a straight line at a 45 degree angle.
One thing I did notice in your pictures may further complicate things. The Russian military acceptance on the right side of the pommel. The bayonets, (and unmarked scabbards) that were not made for Russian issue/use, but for contracts / sales outside of Russia were not stamped. For bayonets and rifles sold or provided to other ComBloc countries all the markings were completely Russian.
Now things get really complicated. After enlarging and studying your picture it is clear to me that the acceptance mark on your bayonet has been intentionally obliterated with multiple strikes. Why? Failed inspection? Remove from inventory to be used to fill a Finnish contract? Removed to be sold to some other country / user? This is one of several similar weird AK47 bayonets I have seen recently with strange markings and other markings lined out or missing. I am wondering if some 3rd world country dumped some of these on the surplus market.

[Mr. B.]

Here is an enlarged copy of one of your pictures showing the marked out Russian military acceptance stamp. Below is a close up of my earliest Russian AK47 bayonet showing the acceptance stamp, (flattened diamond containing CB), and the original long Russian numbers. In MHO, I would file your bayonet and scabbard as Finnish 1st contract.
Mike

[Mr. B.]

I spent at lot of time comparing your pictures to all the AK47 pictures on this forum under Finland, Russia and unknown items. Take a look at them and see what you think. Mike

[Anthony]

Thanks for your time and consideration on this piece Mike.

It had me guessing too and the quirks are what drew me to it. I doubt we'll ever really know what it's all about and can now only hypothesise about it.

I wondered, as did you, if the acceptance is stamp was obliterated because it was pulled to make up numbers for possible non Russian military 'contract fulfilment' purposes as opposed to a 'quality' fail. I was also puzzled by the two purposely struck dots next to it.

Who would assign and apply the serial number? ... the Izhevsk factory or the intended recipient? Either way it must have passed final acceptance as that would have been the last thing done ... unless of course the acceptance stamp was obliterated after an overhaul event at some point in its lifetime?

Too many unknowns.

Anyway, it's in my catalogue as Russian manufacture for a Finnish contract.

[Mr. B.]

Just a note about my comment concerning "failed inspection, quality fail", did not mean that the bayonet had quality issues. I was referring to the fact that original acceptance stamp was placed too close to the grip panel and struck at an angle. I thought that the stamping was a failure. How to fix/repair that ..... simply mark it out and place the bayonet in the contract or sale box.
Also I am unsure where the numbers were applied to the bayonets. Usually the bayonets were produced along with the rifles and numbered to match. The bayonets, scabbards and rifles were stored and issued together. The Finnish contracts were just for the bayonets. Russia never sent the rifles to Finland so the bayonet numbers were only for inventor purposes. I imagine the consecutive numbers would have been applied when they were made at Izhevsk, just done to different specifications. I can't imagine the Finns unpackaging and repacking all those bayonets just to hand stamp the individual numbers.
Mike

[Mr. B.]

The Russians also produced bayonets and scabbards as well as individual parts to supply to various ComBloc countries. The original AK47 rifles were not made for bayonets until later. They were sort of a production change and retro fit. The bayonets and parts were later supplied before the other countries could start their own bayonet production and to subsidize their production. Bayonets with the Izhevsk marked cross guards have been found on DDR, Polish and Bulgarian bayonets as well as the Finnish ones and possibly others as well. Most were probably numbered by the receiving country in their style. Either assembled from parts or completed bayonets. Same goes for the scabbards. When Russia provided or sold rifles and bayonets together to the other counties they were from Russian stock and had Russian markings until the other countries could make their own.
Mike