Wazzit?

For the Identification of Unknown AK Bayonets and Related Discussion such as Displaying, Use, etc
Marco
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Marco » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:36 pm

ok

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Brian
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Brian » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:16 pm

Remember the Khyber Pass (Darra) gunsmiths will hand make an entire weapon, either accurately to the real one, or doing a hybrid of various weapons. They do this for fun, profit and warfare. And they do it with crude hand tools and basic machinery. It is nothing for them to turn out a copy of a bayonet when they have just turned out a crude AK or whatever. Just one source of this kind of thing.
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Marco
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Marco » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:40 pm

Hello! I agree with Brian, but I had to see and touch some weapons from Khyber, and I can say you it is only the look! The iron used is soft, as soft as the weapon explode when you shot the last bullet of the first magazine you use!!! (could see it in live) So, I think it is the same for bayonets... But they are also doing bayonets as I could see when I was here.

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Bruno
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Bruno » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:25 am

I´ve just bought this bayo but haven´t seen yet.. who´s the maker - Roumania or Russia or..?

Reportedly there is no markings - only three digit number on the tip of scabbard..
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ilian
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by ilian » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:30 pm

It's an hungarian AKM type I

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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:58 pm

Yes, both the AKM 6X4 type I bayonet and scabbard are Hungarian. They are a miss-matched as the scabbard is an early Hungarian military issue due to the stamped numbers on the scabbard cutter stop. The bayonet is a later export version with no markings or numbers. Mike

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MDIvie
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by MDIvie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:58 pm

To answer the question as to why someone would make a fake of a bayonet that is not really that expensive for an original, its simple cheap labor and cheap materials. Pakistan, China, etc. have dirt cheap labor. With that and cheap materials, they can probably crank these fakes for $2 or $3 total cot each. They then sale for $20 or $30 each. I'll take that kind of margin any day.

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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:27 pm

Here is a Wazzit for the experts. A friend contacted me about this bayonet he saw on an internet site. He wanted to know if it was real. I had my suspicions, but told him I would post it and see what others thought. I could not find anything in my references. It appears to be a late issue Czech VZ-58 with a long quadrangular blade and a screwdriver point. Any thoughts, experimental, prototype, special purpose, fake or fantasy? :shrug:
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ilian
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by ilian » Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:59 pm

Blade looks like Mosin nagant blade?

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Brian
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Brian » Thu Dec 20, 2018 7:26 pm

Fantasy, blade welded to a VZ handle
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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:44 pm

I believe you are both correct. Mosin Nagant blade welded to a Czech VZ58 type III hilt. This is a quote from the person that posted the pictures: "Why? Because you can, that's why! ".

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Bruno
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Bruno » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:05 pm

Mr. B. wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:58 pm
Yes, both the AKM 6X4 type I bayonet and scabbard are Hungarian. They are a miss-matched as the scabbard is an early Hungarian military issue due to the stamped numbers on the scabbard cutter stop. The bayonet is a later export version with no markings or numbers. Mike
Thanks for proper answer(s).
Got that bayo, supplied with hanger and made some comparison pics with the other hungarian AK bayo I had before (I´ll put those pics into hungarian cell of this forum later).

Now I have another Q-n.
Have a look to this AK first model bayo - I bought it in KABUL flea market approx 10 years ago for 20 bucks and I´ve always thought that it is a russian one.
Now, familiarising myself with this perfecto forum I have some doubts - is it really russian or, for example, romanian or something else?
It has no more markings besides that matching serial and literas "TO" in this serial a both good for latin and kirillitsa..
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ilian
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by ilian » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:09 pm

it's not an AK first model but AKM first model, not the same rifle and not the same way to fit on ;)

Classic romanian AKM type I with russian leather/web hanger

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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:29 pm

This is a Romanian AKM 6X3 Type I bayonet and scabbard. The "TO" serial number indicates it was manufactured/issued in 1966. It was most probably issued/numbered to a Romanian PM model 63 or 63/65 AKM rifle. The Romanians matched their bayonets to a rifle and used the prefix letter code and the last 4 digits of the rifle serial number. The rifles also had the year of production which enables us to know when the bayonets were made/ issued as well.
The rubber insulator and the wrist strap also appear to be original Romanian. The belt hanger is a replacement and is the type usually found on reworked Russian AKM 6X3 bayonets. These canvas and leather hangers were made up to replace the original all leather hangers. This particular hanger has the round wire "D" ring verses the flattened stamped "D" ring on the earlier versions. Also the hilt loop strap has a brass fastening stud rather than the original blacken steel stud found on the original ones. All that, plus the new unused condition indicates this is possibly a reproduction and a more recent replacement. BTW: The "TO" is English(?), not Latin or Cyrillic. Mike

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MDIvie
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by MDIvie » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:18 am

Mike, I've had a hanger with a canvas belt loop for years. Came off a used Russian 6H3 that I pulled out of a bin Northridge had of them. It has the flattened D-Ring but the thorn is brass.
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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:55 pm

You are right Martin. I made a premature assumption about the Russian fabric and leather belt hangers. I based it on the ones I have. The first one with the flat ring, I acquired like you did. Attached to a reworked 6X3 from a large lot of bayonets years ago. The other one with the round wire "D" ring was acquired more recently from another shipment of reworked mixed 6X3 and 6X4 bayonets from Bulgaria.
Prompted by your post I spent some time going through my picture collection and references and have come to the conclusion that there is very little consistency in the materials or assembly of the fabric and leather hangers. Evidently the standards for these hangers involved only overall and key dimensions plus functionality. Most probably fabricated by different people at different times and places to meet orders as required to provide replacements for the original issued hangers.

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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:28 pm

Here are some examples of the different variations of the Russian fabric and leather belt hangers. Below are assorted pictures from various source that demonstrate some of the differences. Original used or new old stock or more recent reproductions from unknown sources?
1. Flat stamped metal "D" ring, (early?), vs round wire "D" ring, (later?). Also one with a more triangular shape has been found.
2. The fabric has been observed in different colors, weaves and dimensions.
3. The leather hilt loop an be found in different colors, tan, brown, black. The finish can be smooth or different textures. Differences in thickness and end cuts can be noted.
4. Different styles, materials of fastening studs are used. Steel, brass, aluminum and flat, round and pointed.
5. Different styles/shapes of snap hooks are used.
6. Different sizes,and shapes and methods of setting are noted in the rivets. Usually the rivets are set on the inside but some have been noted reversed.
7. Different shapes of the folded metal bracket. Round ends vs more pointed.
8. Different methods of attaching the fabric and leather loops. Canvas looped over the leather on the inside, outside or both sides.

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Mr. B.
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Mr. B. » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:33 pm

Russian fabric and leather hanger 13jpg.jpg
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MDIvie
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by MDIvie » Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:40 am

You can go absolutely crazy looking at hangers. This is a good example. I stopped trying to collect all the sub-variations years ago. I have tried to get as many of the major variations of Russian hangers pictured in the manuals, but still am missing some early ones of those and still need the type issued with the 1986 6X5 prototype that has no D-ring.
Romanian hangers are just as crazy if not more so as a the various hangers found on Bulgarian 6X2 rework bayonets that came out of the Balkans.

MDI

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Bruno
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Re: Wazzit?

Post by Bruno » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:22 pm

Thanks for answers about my AKM 1.model that I was thinking it´s russian but this bloody bastard appears to be romanian instead :evil:

Two more pics from ebay now - are those bayonets russian made or not :?:
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